>>> NOW TURNING TO HAITI.

THESE DISASTERS ADD TO THE SUFFERING IN A COUNTRY ALREADY PLAGUED BY GANG VIOLENCE AND GOVERNMENT INSTABILITY.

OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS WITHOUT INTERNATIONAL HELP, THE COUNTRY COULD DESCEND INTO A CIVIL WAR.

HERE HE IS SPEAKING WITH MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> WE HAVE A NUMBER OF THINGS TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT, BUT HOW ARE THINGS NOW?

YOU'RE SAYING THERE WAS VERY SERIOUS FLOODING WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS.

HOW ARE YOU?

HOW ARE THINGS?

>> WELL, WE ARE OKAY.

JUNE 1st STARTED HURRICANE SEASON AND HAITI IS ONE OF THE MOST FRAGILE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD SO ON JUNE 1st WE HAD VERY, VERY BAD WEATHER THAT LED TO FLOODING WHERE WE ARE, INCLUDING IN MY OWN OFFICE, BUT THE COUNTRY SUFFERED THE MOST.

WE HAVE 42 DEATHS, 11 PEOPLE DISAPPEARED.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN ANY SIGN OF THEM.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS.

WE ALSO HAD AN EARTHQUAKE YESTERDAY MT SOUTH OF THE COUNTRY THAT KILLED SEVERAL PEOPLE.

>> FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN TO HAITI, WHO HAVE DONE WORK THERE, VISITED, THEY ARE WELL AWARE THAT YOUR CLINIC HAS NEVER SHUT DOWN BEFORE.

>> YESTERDAY WE WERE ABLE TO.

WE CLEANED THE PLACE.

WE ARE COMPLETELY OPERATIONAL.

>> THAT'S GOOD TO HEAR.

YOU WROTE A VERY POWERFUL AND FRANKLY VERY ALARMING PIECE FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," A GUEST ESSAY SAYING THINGS ARE REALLY DIRE.

YOU SAID THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU FEEL HAITI NEEDS OUTSIDE HELP.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> WELL, THIS IS CORRECT.

AS YOU KNOW, WE BELIEVE THROUGH POLITICAL INSTABILITY 23 GOVERNMENTS SINCE 1986.

WE'VE LIVED THREW MAJOR HURRICANES.

WE HAD TWO MAJOR EARTHQUAKES, 2010 IN PARTICULAR WAS DEVASTATING.

BUT WHAT'S PARTICULARLY HARD NOW IS THAT WE HAVE A PERFORM BECAUSE THE POLITICAL CRISIS HAS -- WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO WAS ELECTED BUT THIS PRESIDENT HAD A POSITION EVEN BEFORE HE GOT INTO POWER.

WITH THE COUNTRY BEING LOCKED, CLOSED FOR THREE MONTHS WHERE SCHOOLS EVEN IN A COUNTRY WHERE 50% OF PEOPLE ARE ILLITERATE, SCHOOLS WERE FORCED TO CLOSE, BUSINESSES CLOSED, ET CETERA.

THIS WAS VERY, VERY DAMAGING TO THE COUNTRY THAT CULMINATED WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT THIS PAST JULY 2021.

AND SINCE THAT TIME WE HAVE NO ELECTED PERSON IN GOVERNMENT.

SO THIS IS THE POLITICAL FRONT.

NOW IF YOU LOOK AT THE ECONOMY, FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS THE ECONOMY HAS BEEN NEGATIVE.

WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH ANY COUNTRY, WE ARE AT WAR WITH OURSELVES.

THAT'S A PROBLEM.

AND THE INFLATION IS 47%.

THE LOCAL CURRENCY HAS BEEN DEVALUED 50% IN THE LAST THREE YEARS.

WITH THIS SITUATION WE HAVE A HUGE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS BECAUSE THE PRICE OF FOOD HAS INCREASED A LOT.

SOMETHING NEW HAS HAPPENED.

THIS IS THE MOST SEVERE.

THE FACT THAT GANGS HAVE TAKEN CONTROL OF THE ENTRY TO THE CAPITOL, AND BECAUSE OF THAT YOU HAVE CROPS BEING PRODUCED BY THE COUNTRYSIDE THAT ARE BEING ROTTEN BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BRING THEM TO THE CAPITOL.

THAT HAS ALSO INCREASED THE PRICE OF FOOD AND AS A RESULT WE HAVE OVER 50% OF PEOPLE LIVING IN FOOD INSECURITY.

IN OUR OWN CENTERS WE ARE SEEING MORE AND MORE CHILDREN WITH SEVERE MALNUTRITION.

WITH SEVERE MALNUTRITION IT'S ASSOCIATED WITH ALL KINDS OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE.

THIS IS HORRIBLE.

THIS IS SOMETHING WE DON'T WANT.

>> TALK TO ME ABOUT THE GANGS.

I MEAN, IS THERE ANY LEADERSHIP AMONG SNEM I MEAN, SURELY SOME OF THEIR OWN MEMBERS ARE SURELY EXPERIENCING THESE CONDITIONS?

>> I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON GANGS.

I DON'T WORK WITH GANGS.

I'VE NOT STUDIED GANGS, BUT WHAT I'VE SEEN BASICALLY IS THE FACT THEY HAVE EVOLVED ESSENTIALLY IN A VACUUM BECAUSE WHEN WE ARE OCCUPIED BY THE U.N.

FORCES FROM 2004 TO 2017, 14 YEARS, THE COUNTRY WAS VERY STABLE.

AT ONE POINT THEY HAD THE FORCE OF 9,000 PEOPLE, MOSTLY MILITARY PEOPLE, VERY WELL-EQUIPPED WITH TANKS, ET CETERA.

THE COUNTRY WAS VERY STABLE.

THERE WAS NOTHING GOING ON.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY THEY DID NOT TRAIN THEIR REPLACEMENT.

FOR SOME REASON THE U.S. DECIDED TO DEACTIVATE THE ARMY AND THE ARMY IS THE ONE IN CHARGE PREVIOUSLY OF DOING EVERYTHING, POLICE AND EVERYTHING.

AND THEN THEY CREATED FRANCE, THE U.S., AND CANADA CREATED THIS NEW POLICE FORCE.

AT ONE POINT THEY WERE STRONG OF 13,000 WHICH WAS STILL MUCH TOO LITTLE FOR A COUNTRY OF OVER 11 MILLION BUT NOW AT MOST THERE ARE 4,000 FIGHTING GANGS.

THEY WERE TRAINED TO DO THAT.

THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ONE TANK.

WE DON'T HAVE ONE TANK IN OUR COUNTRY.

CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?

AND THEY STRUGGLE TO GET THE ARMED VEHICLES THEY HAVE NOW AND THEY ARE BURNING WITH MOLOTOV COCKTAILS.

AND AT THE SAME TIME THERE WAS AN EMBARGO FOR THE ASIAN GOVERNMENT TO PURCHASE GUNS FOR THE U.S.

WHILE 90% OF THE GANGS, THAT'S WHAT'S BEEN RECORDED.

THE GUNS ARE COMING FROM THE U.S.

SO THIS IS KIND OF ABSURD.

SO BASICALLY THERE WAS NEVER A LARGE PROGRAM FOR THE YOUTHS.

IT WAS MOSTLY UNEMPLOYED.

SO GANG ATTRACTION BECAME SOMETHING VERY, VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE THEY WERE PAID ALSO.

THEY WERE PAID BY THE GANGS TO JOIN THEM AND GANGS WERE MAKING A LOT OF MONEY.

THEY KIDNAP THE POOREST AND THE RICHEST.

>> WHAT IS DAY-TO-DAY LIFE LIKE FOR YOU AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH YOU?

CAN YOU JUST SORT OF DESCRIBE WHAT IT TAKES TO GET THROUGH THE DAY?

>> WELL, I CAN TELL YOU WE ARE RESILIENT.

WE ARE MOTIVATED.

WE ARE OPTIMISTS SO WE WAKE UP IN THE MORNING WITH THE IDEA THAT WE COULD BE KIDNAPPED OR KILLED, BUT WE COME IN IN A CONVOY AND WE LEAVE IN A CONVOY.

WE FEEL WE ARE STRONGER TOGETHER.

HERE, YOU ARE DOING THE INTERVIEW HERE BECAUSE WE ARE DOING FINE.

IT'S USUALLY UNUSUAL.

THEY ARE ALL AROUND US.

IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT BECAUSE WE HAD ON FOUR OCCASIONS MEMBERS OF OUR STAFF KIDNAPPED.

THE PRESSURE WE PUT ON THE GANGS IS THAT WE CLOSE THE CENTERS.

WHEN WE CLOSE THE CENTER FROM WHERE I AM TALKING TO YOU FROM NOW, NOBODY STAYS DOWNTOWN BECAUSE IT HAS NEVER BEEN REBUILT.

IT WAS DESTROYED BY THE EARTHQUAKE BUT WE ARE CLOSE TO THE POOR PEOPLE.

THEY ASK US TO STAY, WE STAY WITH THEM.

WHEN WE CLOSE HERE, IT'S A DISASTER.

WE SEE ON A DAILY BASIS 2,000 PEOPLE GET FREE CARE.

>> 2,000 PEOPLE A DAY?

>> YES.

SO THE STREET MERCHANTS DON'T EVEN COME.

BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S STILL HUGE, TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE.

EVEN FOR AN HOUR, IT'S YOUR FREEDOM TAKEN FROM YOU.

>> WE'VE HEARD OF THESE REALLY GRUESOME ATTACKS ON WHAT POLICE REMAIN AND HAVE MEMBERS OF YOUR STAFF LEFT THE COUNTRY JUST BECAUSE IT'S TOO MUCH, JUST MORE THAN THEY CAN TOLERATE?

>> IT'S NOT JUST MEMBERS OF OUR STAFF.

THE LARGEST BECAUSE OF INSECURITY.

A MAJORITY OF THEM LEFT FOR U.S. OR CANADA, CANADA MOSTLY.

NOW THE OPENING THROUGH THE BIDEN OFFERING WE HAVE MORE PEOPLE LEAVING INCLUDING POLICEMEN.

A STAFF OF 600, WE HAVE 200 OF THE BEST AND BRIGHTEST.

SO THIS IS THE SITUATION WE'RE IN NOW.

IT'S DESPERATE.

>> IF THIS CONTINUES, WOULD YOU SAY IT IS LIKELY YOU WILL HAVE TO SHUT DOWN, THAT YOU CANNOT CONTINUE UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES?

IS THAT A REALISTIC POSSIBILITY?

>> YES.

IF THIS CONTINUES, WE HAVE TO SHUT DOWN THE DOWNTOWN CENTER.

WHERE WE ARE IS THE MOST DANGEROUS PART.

NOBODY WANTS TO COME DOWN HERE.

FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS IT'S BEEN CALLED A RED ZONE.

>> IF YOU WERE TO CLOSE DOWN THERE, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RESULT WOULD BE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD HAVE THREE IMPACT BECAUSE OUR MISSION IS ONE OF PATIENT CARE.

WE ARE THE LARGEST CENTER FOR HIV AND TUBERCULOSIS IN THE AMERICAS, ONE OF THE LARGEST.

SO THAT -- THAT WOULD SUFFER A LOT.

AND WE ALSO HAVE A LARGE CENTER FOR CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE BECAUSE THIS HAS BECOME NOW THE NUMBER ONE KILLER.

SO WE OPEN A CENTER FOR THAT.

AND IT'S REALLY AT THE DOWNTOWN SITE WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW.

IN TERMS OF TRAINING, WE ARE THE LARGEST POSTGRADUATE TRAINING CENTER IN HAITI.

WE ALSO HAVE THE FIRST MASTER PROGRAM AND NURSE PRACTITIONER PROGRAM WITH THE UNIVERSITY AND ALSO A LARGE COMMUNITY HEALTH PROGRAM.

AND THEN FOR RESEARCH, WE'VE PUBLISHED PAPERS AND SOME OF THEM HAVE CHANGED THEIR GUIDELINES ON HIV, TUBERCULOSIS, CHOLERA AND NOW CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE.

SO THIS IS THE IMPACT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WERE TELLING US EARLIER IS THE GANGS HAVE CONTROLLED -- AT LEAST AT A CERTAIN POINT THEY CONTROLLED ACCESS NOT JUST TO MAJOR -- ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS BUT ACCESS TO THE FUEL DEPOT AND ACCESS TO THE AIRPORT.

HOW ARE YOU EVEN GETTING YOUR SUPPLIES AT THIS POINT?

>> FOR US, IT STARTED A HUGE IMPACT.

THEY HAVE TWO EXTRA MACHINES THAT WERE GOING TO BE DELIVERED TO OUR SITE BUT THEY WHEN THEY LEARNED IT WAS FOR US, THEY LET IT GO.

FOR THE REST OF THE KUCHB TRY, IT'S TERRIBLE.

FOR A PERSON TO GET THROUGH CUSTOMS, IT'S A NIGHTMARE.

>> YOU SAID IN YOUR PIECE YOU HAVE NEVER CALLED FOR INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION.

NO COUNTRY WOULD WANT THAT.

NO COUNTRY WANTS FOREIGN SOLDIERS ON THEIR SOIL BUT AT THIS POINT YOU FEEL THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE.

WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HELP THE MOST AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, HONESTLY, WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE INTERNATIONAL POLICE.

THEY ARE FIGHTING ALONE.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE PROPER GUNS.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE NUMBERS.

THE POPULATION IS HELPING THEM.

I THINK THE POPULATION IS SO DESPERATE THEY ARE READY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

INNOCENT PEOPLE COULD ALSO PERRISH IN THIS.

THE REALITY IS THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT PROTECT THEM, NOW THEY HAVE FORMED BRIGADES IN MANY NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE THEY ARE DEFENDING THEMSELVES TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT THE VICTIMS OF GANGS ANYMORE.

THIS WILL NOT SOLVE THE ISSUE.

WE NEED TO BRING BACK LAW AND ORDER.

WE NEED JUSTICE.

>> DO YOU HAVE A MESSAGE FOR PARTICULARLY PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES, CANADA, PERHAPS FRANCE WHO MAY BE LISTENING TO THIS CONVERSATION AND MIGHT BE WONDERING WHAT THEY CAN DO TO SUPPORT YOU AND WANTS TO SEE STABILITY AND HUMANITY RETURN BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS TO LIVE LIKE THIS?

>> YES.

IT'S NOT GOOD FOR ANYBODY.

I THINK THAT FRANCE -- WE HAVE STRONG TIES WITH FRANCE.

I THINK THEY CAN ALSO HELP.

I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE SOME FRENCH AND AMERICAN TRAINERS WHO COME IN HAITI TO TRAIN THE NATIONAL POLICE.

WE NEED MORE THAN THAT.

WE NEED PEOPLE ON THE GROUND THAT CAN DIRECT OPERATIONS AND WE ALSO NEED SOME SUPPORT TO INVEST IN THE YOUTHS.

IT'S NOT NORMAL THAT THE YOUTH HAS NO FUTURE, THAT THE ONLY THING THEY CAN THINK OF IS LEAVING THE COUNTRY.

IT'S NOT GOOD FOR ANYBODY.

AND I THINK THAT THEY ARE AMAZING BECAUSE WHAT WE DO HERE FOR THEM, TRAINING OURSELVES IN OUR VOCATIONAL SCHOOL, IT'S AMAZING TO SEE WHAT THEY CAN DO.

WE ALSO HAVE THE SCHOOL HERE ON THE PREMISES FROM WHERE I'M TALKING TO YOU.

AND YOU SHOULD SEE HOW KIDS ARE EAGER TO LEARN.

SO WE NEED TO CHANGE THE DYNAMIC.

FOR ONCE GIVE THEM A GOOD CHANCE.

WE NEVER HAD THAT.

>> BEFORE YOU GO, I DON'T WANT TO OFFEND WITH THIS QUESTION, BUT I THINK THERE WILL BE THOSE LISTENING TO OUR CONVERSATION WHO MIGHT WONDER WITH YOUR TRAINING, YOUR INTERNATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS AND THE RESPECT YOU HAVE AROUND THE WORLD, I THINK THERE ARE THOSE WHO WONDER WHY YOU STAY.

WHY DO YOU SAY?

>> YOU KNOW, I BUILT WITH MY COLLEAGUES -- IT'S UNIQUE IN MANY WAYS.

I'M AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE PERSON.

THAT'S MY SPECIALTY.

BUT WE HAVE ALSO SET UP A CARDIOVASCULAR CENTER BECAUSE THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE KILLER IN THE COUNTRY.

HERE WE ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE.

WE'VE SEEN AIDS BEING THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF DEATH.

WE ARE TREATING KIDS.

NOW IT'S THE SECOND CAUSE OF DEATH.

CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE IS THE NEW CHALLENGE AND WE ARE ATTACKING THAT.

AT THE SAME TIME, WHEN THINGS ARE DESPERATE, WE ARE OPERATIONAL.

WE ARE GOING TO PRESENT OUR RESULTS.

THE RESULTS OF THE 3,000 PEOPLE WE FOLLOWED FOR FIVE YEARS, WE ARE GOING TO FOLLOW THEM FOR TEN YEARS.

SO, AT THE SAME TIME THE COUNTRY IS NOT WORKING, WE ARE FULLY FUNCTIONING.

SO ESSENTIALLY IT WOULD BE A SHAME TO LEAVE ALL THAT WE BUILT.

AND I THINK IT WOULD BE A WASTE FOR THE COUNTRY.

I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT.

IT'S MY LEGACY TO MY COUNTRY.

>> DOCTOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> MY PLEASURE.